cHURCH Relevance Today? with Dr. Johnny Walker Part 1

Rick Yuhas 0:00
Coming up on renewed mindsets, an interview that Oprah herself would be envious of. Two seasoned ministers discussing the state of the church in 2024. 

Dr. Johnny Walker 0:11
I mean, how many arguments have you been in at the Southern Baptist Church where we're the answer, You know, why can't we do this? We've never done that before. We've always done it this way. 

Rick Yuhas 0:21
And taking a youth to business meeting because there was an argument about the color of the drapes over the baptistery. And I'm like, yeah, they these teenagers don't need to hear this, right? A lot is being said about the church these days, what works and what doesn't seem to be working. Why people go and why others don't. Well, discuss it. All right, now, Let's go, boys. 


Hey, Welcome to Renewed Mindsets. I'm Rick . I'm so glad you're here. With me today is Dr. Johnny Walker. He's the president of Character Inc and the developer of the foundational core Values Leadership Coaching model program. And one of my closest friends for 28 years now.

And today we've got Johnny Walker.  Do I have you, Johnny? 

Now I hear nothing. 

Where did you go? 

Dr. Johnny Walker 2:48
How about now? 

Rick Yuhas 2:49
Yeah. What did you do? 

Dr. Johnny Walker 2:51
I unmuted it? 

Rick Yuhas 2:54
Okay. HAHAHA!. 

Dr. Johnny Walker 2:57
I was messing with my mike sounds and whatnot, and it apparently muted it. 

Rick Yuhas 3:01
Well, we'll just keep that in, because I kind of like 

it shows that we're real here. This is not all done with AI. 

Dr. Johnny Walker 3:10
That's right. 

Rick Yuhas 3:11
How you doing? 

Dr. Johnny Walker 3:13
I'm doing well. It's. It's great to be here. 

Rick Yuhas 3:15
We're really glad to have you. So before we get started, Johnny, why don't you tell everybody a little bit about yourself? 

Dr. Johnny Walker 3:22
Well, I'm the president of Character Incorporated. We are a training company. I actually describe us as a behavior change company. We use values based processes within organizations to help people to engage their customers, each other internally, leaders to employees, and vice versa. The way people want to be treated, which is by values. And so we have processes, not just concepts and ideas. And so that's what we do. During the week in on the on the weekends and sometimes during the week. I'm also the college career minister at Russell Street Baptist Church in Marietta, Georgia. 
Church Relevance
Rick Yuhas 4:02
Yeah, we've got a lot of listeners in Georgia. This show is actually played on 99.1 WDJY. So at the time we're recording this, we haven't really come up with a name for what we're talking about. So if you would, Johnny, go ahead and define it in your own terms. 

Dr. Johnny Walker 4:20
Well, I think I think I think what you said to me was good. You know, why should why should anyone go to church? 

Rick Yuhas 4:29
Yeah. 

Dr. Johnny Walker 4:30
You know, why should anyone want to go to church? 

Rick Yuhas 4:33
Why bother? 

Dr. Johnny Walker 4:35
Well, yeah, why bother going to church? That's what you said. 

Rick Yuhas 4:38
So we're talking about attending church. Church Relevance. And really, why would anybody want to go these days? And why I picked Johnny Walker to be the expert to discuss this. I really, really don't know. But. 

But, Johnny, what's your initial thoughts on that? 

Dr. Johnny Walker 5:00
You know, this is a question, Rick, that you and I for decades have been talking about. You know, we've done ministry together for years, 

and I am truly of the belief that we need to earn the right for people to come. I think that we try to guilt people into coming. I think in the eighties, we tried to entertain them into coming. And then in recent years, we've moved to guilting people to coming. But I just I believe that if we're not offering anything of value, why should they come? I think it's a great question. Why bother? 

Rick Yuhas 5:38
Why bother? I've been doing some research on that. And, you know, we've all heard that church attendance is down and a lot of preachers these days are blaming it on COVID from a few years ago. There is no doubt that church attendance is down since then. But I think what people don't realize is that Barna did a survey in 2003 and 45% of boomers attended church in 2003 and 34% of Gen-Xers, which is you and I, went to church in 2003. They did the same survey in March of 2020, right before COVID, and those numbers went down. Boomers went from 45 to 32% and Gen X went from 34 to 29%. And then after COVID, it's down 36%, even more of that. So we're talking about people that previously went to church. We're not talking about people that might be searching, but we're talking about church goers that have just quit going. So what do you think the problem is there? 

Dr. Johnny Walker 6:42
Again, I think it's relevancy. I think that we're not teaching anything relevant to people's lives. I think we're teaching religion, religiosity how to fit into the Christian culture. I mean, there is a time in the U.S., I mean, especially here in the Bible Belt that we owned it, you know, the culture. Even when I was younger, it was not unusual. I was I started in law enforcement that friends were going into business at that time where they were told to go join a church, especially salespeople go join a church, build relationships there. And because that's the best place to build relationships. And it was just because the majority, a large portion of the population was going it was popular to go. You know, for whatever reason. And, you know, we'd just come out of the seventies, you know, conservativism was was coming back, you know, in the eighties. And so and then we associated, you know, God's blessing with money and, you know, just the snowball just kept going. And all the things I think that the church promised back then. You know, I mean, when they taught how to do testimonies, you know, previously, how terrible was your life? What was your conversion experience? And then how wonderful has it been ever since? You know, I think Tony Campolo was is probably still is an evangelist. But back in the eighties, he told a story of a young girl who got up in their church and five years old, and they gave her the microphone and they said, well, tell us how you came to Christ. And she started off with four years. I wallowed deep in sin, you know, And he laughed. He says, What was she, a prostitute it to? I mean, come on. I mean, how bad could your life be in wallowing in sin at five years old? But that's just what she had heard. That's the testimonies that she heard. So there's this Whether it was intentional or passive, I think we promised things like your life before, whatever it was. That's horrible. Once you accept Christ and you do the church things, your life is going to be amazing. And that's the testimonies that we gave that was so we set this expectation. If you do life right, God will bless you and by blessings we met money and things and possessions and bigger houses or nicer cars or a better job. And none of that said Scripture scriptures about how to endure all the crap and all the junk in this world, you know. And if you look at blessings in Scripture, blessed are those who mourn for they will be comforted. I mean, it's all of our promises are in heaven and God. The promise that we have here is that we can be walking this path of salvation and knowing that at the end of that, if we endure to the end, we will be saved. 

Rick Yuhas 9:18
Amen to that. 

Dr. Johnny Walker 9:19
And in the promises that God will give, strength in God will give wisdom, and God will give the ability to endure. He'll give us everything we need to do that. But that's not what we're preaching. 

Rick Yuhas 9:33
Right? 

Dr. Johnny Walker 9:34
And that's another problem we're preaching now, sometimes teaching instead of discipleship. 

Rick Yuhas 9:40
Well, don't you think that may be because I know you were just talking about the eighties and the seventies, but that culture was really building off of the generation before from the fifties and sixties, where church was really the only game in town, especially here in the south. There really wasn't a whole lot to do. And churches were built in the center of a community. 

Dr. Johnny Walker 10:02
Yes. 

Rick Yuhas 10:02
Which is why we have so many buildings now with 10 to 15 church members, because people didn't drive to church. They walked to church and they went to the church in their neighborhood and they were full. I don't know that it was full of people who were searching for what the church was offering or if they were just getting social interaction that they weren't getting somewhere else. And here we are in a day and time where there's a million things to do. 

Dr. Johnny Walker 10:29
Well, that's absolutely right. And in the eighties, even when I was in a megachurch and a large youth group and there was a lot of great opportunities afforded doing ministry and gathering large groups of Christians together to do amazing things is never a terrible idea. But if the whole idea is that we can count numbers, that's a whole nother conversation. But I made the comment when I was going to Sanford and I was preparing for ministry and we cannot out entertain the world. We've got to stop trying to do this. It's not possible. We cannot out entertain the world. We will run out of money. Back when you and I were doing just Jesus Ministries and we were doing retreats and stuff where everyone else was naming their retreats. These fun and trendy names in our fall retreat was called The Retreat. The summer mission trip was called The Summer Mission trip, you know, and we just we just shied away from all that because we really wanted to get to the basics of people's faith and train them in the basics and truly disciple them and teach them things that were relevant for them to be able to endure this, this world and stay on the path. 

Rick Yuhas 11:41
Right? So I think churches may have finally figured that out in the last 15 years with the live stream. Yeah, if this was video, you would see two pairs of eyes rolling about as hard as they could roll. Now, I love our live stream. I love the option of live stream. And it really became popular during COVID. Yeah, but the problem with the live stream is your bigger churches are still trying to compete with the world. Mm hmm. So they've got the light shows and the fog machines and the pastor flying in on a on a wire. I mean, I don't know that I've ever actually seen that, but it really sounds good. 

Dr. Johnny Walker 12:24
Well, there are some images out there of a pastor doing that. I'm not sure that's mainstream, but yeah, it's been done. 

Rick Yuhas 12:29
Well, you've got that. And then you have the small little churches like we were talking about that may have 20 to 25 members. And I've got a 25 year old video camera set up in the back corner, zoomed up about as far as it could zoom. Horrible sound, nothing worth watching. It's great that they're online and they have a presence, but you can't compete even with a 14 year old's YouTube videos with a set up like that. 

Dr. Johnny Walker 13:02
Yeah. And again, I go back to if you can talk about live streaming content. And so in the business world, if you're going to do, you know, videos for your company and this and that and the other, your content has to be relevant. And so when you start looking at all this and these kids are understanding relevancy and they're trying to be relevant to the world around them, but really what they're trying to be is, is an influencer. And really that's a lie. They're they're being influenced and being told how to be an influencer. I mean, so it's just this cycle, but but they understand relevancy. If I want numbers, I've got to attract the people. And we've been doing this game within the church for a very long time. 

Rick Yuhas 13:46
We have. And it's sad. We actually have to call it a game. So let's get back to to the live stream. 

Dr. Johnny Walker 13:52
Question But you talked about the live streaming and that COVID really brought that in. And it was very interesting around this time that before COVID in 2019 was going to a luncheon learn at a larger church out here in Acworth, Georgia, Marietta, Kennesaw area. And there was and it was a lunch time thing for business people. And the pastor, his name was Mike is up there. And as I'm walking the Holy Spirit, this thought goes through my mind, you know, invite him to breakfast or invite him to lunch. And I thought, I have nothing that relevant that I, you know, in my mind at that moment. Yeah. So I'm kind of thinking this is just a weird thought. And as soon as I thought that, well, I don't have anything to really meat about, the thought went through. Invite him to lunch. I was like, Yeah. So now I'm thinking this might be the Holy Spirit. And so I start debating, you know, I don't still have anything, you know, what would you want me to talk to about? He said, invite him to lunch. So by that now I'm walked up to him. He's like, Hey, Johnny. And I said, Hey, how you doing, Mike? I said, Good. I said, Hey, you want to grab lunch some time? He said, You know, lunch is tough for me, but let's do breakfast. And he gave me the number of his secretary and we set up breakfast. Two weeks later, I wake up at 4 a.m., which is if you know me, that's odd. I go to bed at 4 a.m. but waking up is very odd. I'm wide awake and what's going through my mind? I'm meeting with this pastor at 730 and I'm thinking, What in the world am I going to be talking about? Why did I have this meeting? I mean, he's a busy person. He has bigger fish to catch, so to speak. The Holy Spirit to give him what you got. I'm like, What now? I heard it again in my head. It was what an audible voice. It was just this thought, Give him what you got. And I'm like, I don't even know what that means. And all I heard was, Give him what you got. And I'm like, Fine, Apparently you're not going to tell me and I'll figure this out or you'll tell me. So I go to breakfast and we're sitting there and I asked him and I said, This is before Cobe. And I said, What was your biggest issue or what is the biggest issue that you're dealing with? And he said, Oh, this online stuff. They said, Well, what do you mean by that? He said, We've got all these people that are visiting online and listening to the sermon and we don't have a way to connect with them as well. What are you training as well? If you talk to during the sermon, you're interrupting, they're focused and beforehand, you know, you welcome them. Hey, welcome. Afterwards, they jump right off. They said, well, what is it you're trying to do? And he says, Well, we want to get him here on campus, you know, to the church. In other words, we want him in the four walls. And I said, Why? And he looked at me like I had three heads. And almost sarcastically he said, So we can disciple them. And I laughed. And I said, Oh, Mike, let's be honest. What percentage of any given Sunday are people being disciple? He was like, Oh man, that hurt. And I said, Well, I mean, let's be honest. I mean, we're preaching at him. Were and then we have these many teeny tiny preachers that are called Sunday school teachers in our life, group leaders or whatever new name we have for them, but they're just imitating what the pastor does. So people sit there and listen for an hour of Sunday school or life group. They get up, they go to another room and they say, Hey, to some people, drink some coffee, sing a few songs, and then they get talked to again. So please, please tell me where this discipleship is happening. And he said, Well, what do you what do you suggest? And the Holy Spirit said, Give them what you got in the way. We do training is we do a full day of training in a company and we do eight weeks of follow ups virtually in small groups. So if we if we had 40 people in the training, we have four groups of ten that go through the files. You've been a part of these and you know where people share, you know, they do some work, you know, based on what they learned at the kick off and then they apply it and then they come back and talk about the experience. And I looked at them and I told them this and I said, Why don't you develop three questions from your sermon? Why don't we so we can train you can train people to facilitate a discussion to disciple through questions. It's not going to be your current leaders because they're usually teaching or telling the train some to ask great questions and have these small groups of 8 to 10 people and all they do is they come on in for an hour. 8 to 10 people share their answers and how they applied this. And of course, the questions have to be not just knowledge based. It has to be practical application. What did you learn from doing this or what do you plan on doing, doing this and that kind of thing? And each week you can have groups that meet for six months, 12 months, you can have groups that you can just jump in and out of. And he says, This is a great idea. So we met a couple of times, never went off the ground. Well, when COVID hit, I'd share this with several other ministers. Love the idea. It never went off the ground. Was COVID hit and they all I get phone calls. How do you do this? How do you do this? So we shared and they started doing it. But what do you think, Rick? What do you think they wanted to do? The moment COVID was, quote unquote, over? 

Rick Yuhas 18:58
They wanted to get those seats filled inside the building. 

Dr. Johnny Walker 19:01
That was it. Yep. So here here was this amazing opportunity to shift the mindset of the people. And I now I looked at this pastor, this breakfast, and I said, Why are you trying to force them into your way of engagement? These people are online and they're telling you this is how they want to engage. Maybe one day they will want to engage in-person, but right now they're telling you, I want to engage online, 

Hey. 

Rick Yuhas 19:32
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Dr. Johnny Walker 20:28
This is where they feel safe. Maybe it's because they're traveling. I mean, there's a lot of amazing things that can happen from something like this. People move and they can still stay in touch with their old friends and they can there's old friends can encourage them into a new church, but still do this discipleship group during the week. I mean, there's a thousand different things. There's a thousand different things that they can do with this. And no one's interested because they all want to do the same old, same old. 

Rick Yuhas 20:53
They do want the same old thing. Not all of them, but the vast majority that I have seen. The reason that they want people back in the church, the reason they want those seats filled, has to do with ego. It has to do with pride. It's about the numbers, the evidence for that is really easy to see. If a church had gone to extremes to make their online stream above and beyond what is normal, which is just a camera turned on and the preaching and then it's turned off. But if they gave options for communicating back and forth, they had people that were stationed online to answer questions, to lead discussions, and that disappeared after COVID. That means that it was really just a gimmick just to keep people settled until you could get them to come back to the church. I'm a firm believer that there is no experience better than join in a local church where you have a family, where you have people that disciple each other, where you have friends that will talk and listen and encourage and offer accountability. There is no experience like a church family like that. We have to face the fact that at this point in history, the majority of people get their information digitally. Yes. And there's nothing wrong with going to church. 

Dr. Johnny Walker 22:36
No. 

Rick Yuhas 22:36
But if we are going to meet people where they are, we're no longer going to the bars to speak to. Now we have to get them where they are. We have to offer something digitally in our stream to help them engage. Which is what you were just saying. 

Dr. Johnny Walker 22:56
Yeah, Yeah. I think it's I think it's an issue of ego. This is the way we've always done it. It goes back, you know, being Southern Baptist, I can make fun of us, you know. Why is the carpet in the Southern Baptist Church always red? 

Rick Yuhas 23:12
Why is that? 

Dr. Johnny Walker 23:13
Because it's always been red 

like a dad joke. But it's true. I mean, how many arguments have you been in and the Southern Baptist Church where where the answer, you know, why can't we do this? We've never done that before. And so I think we're at one of those types of crossroads right now that's more serious than red carpet or drape colors. And I think that that we've never done it this way. We're lazy. 

We and I don't think we should compete with the world. So there's this weird balance. So we started off saying we can't compete with the world, we cannot entertain the world, and now we're in this in the same conversation saying we need to do things similar to the way the world is doing it if we want to attract people. 

Rick Yuhas 23:57
That's the issue right here. It's such a tough question to answer, and I hope that people weren't thinking that we had 100% answer to this question. That's where discussions like this need to happen. The problem is, is these discussions don't happen. They don't happen between the people that could really put it into motion in. 

Dr. Johnny Walker 24:21
And I think the really the bottom line is what are we wanting to attract people to? 

Rick Yuhas 24:29
Well, I think you said it before, it's all about discipleship. Yeah. It's got to be a way to effectively disciple people without them sitting right there. Because if you face it, if you think about it, you go to church on Sunday, you might be there for 2 hours, two and a half hours. If you're Pentecostal. 

Dr. Johnny Walker 24:49
Three, maybe maybe three. 

Rick Yuhas 24:52
And that's it for the week. But with an online presence, you've actually got seven days and 24 hours in that day that you can affect people's lives. 

Dr. Johnny Walker 25:01
Absolutely. Not just what you're doing with your ministry. 

Rick Yuhas 25:04
Right? Right. You can't be live 24 seven. 

Dr. Johnny Walker 25:07
Yeah. 

Rick Yuhas 25:08
But you can have content that people can access at midnight if they need to. There has to be quality content. 

Dr. Johnny Walker 25:15
And that's where the word relevant comes in. So the Bible is extremely relevant. You have this document that's 2000 years old that is as relevant today as it was the day it was written. I'm listening to C.S. Lewis. Mere Christianity. 

Rick Yuhas 25:31
Yeah, we had to read that an ambassador's college and do an essay on it. Great book, very relevant for something that was written in the 1940s. 

Dr. Johnny Walker 25:41
Yes. Spotify is now done audiobooks, and so they have something for free and that's one of them. So, you know, if anyone on listening has Spotify, go find it. But the very beginning where he's talking about the culture and how self-centered they've gotten and how, you know, sexual revolution type things and whatnot, and this is, this is done right? Yeah, this is right after World War Two or right during that time. Right. And I was sitting there going and my mouth was open as I'm driving because I'm like, is he prophesying? Is he talking about 20, 23? Is he? I mean, but, but we could look at any age and we can see all this. So nothing is new here. So the real question is when we were trying to get people in the church before, why were we doing that? Was it for the numbers? I mean, let's go back to why do we have megachurches? Why was that a big thing? Because before Billy Graham there it was, there were no megachurches. And I have a theory, let's say that you had all these pastors in the seventies that ego wanted to have an influence like Billy Graham. Well, how do you do that? You have to have a big crowd. Well, how do you do that? Hit the bigger built, build a bigger building and all these things started happening and people started flocking because of some of the entertainment, the opportunities and what you can do when you pull money together. And there's a lot of good stuff mixed in, a lot of eventually negative things. And it's why are we doing this? When I talk to someone about, you know, my relationship with God through Jesus Christ, with the, you know, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, why am I telling them? Is it because I'm trying to get another number? You witnessed one more one more person. I'm checking the box, you know, so I can tell my Sunday school class. Or is it that I want to feel good about myself, that I did my job telling you something about Jesus? Because, you know, to me, the book of James is like the CliffsNotes of the Bible. That's why my my second son is James Mitchell. I mean, I and I love the book of James. And when he says, what good is it to see someone, you know, naked and hungry and say, go be warm and well-fed, but you do nothing to meet their needs, You know, How good is that faith, then? It's rhetorical. It's not any good at all. It's useless. 

Rick Yuhas 28:06
That sounds like us today. 

Dr. Johnny Walker 28:09
But that's what we've become. Because we're not. We're not meeting needs. I had a conversation with a family member last night that was visiting, and she said they live in another state. And she said, I wish we could find a church like so-and-so's church here. And Atlanta, because, I mean, they found this great situation. They really meet their needs. The ministry of this church helps the, you know, both parents at work and they offer this school and they offer this preschool and they offer these things and then they offer, you know, all these ministries that take a lot of work and effort that meet the needs of the people in that community and their church is a, you know, a megachurch, but they're growing and they're thriving. And she says, you know, our church is almost there, but not quite. And she was talking about relevance and what needs do we have? I mean, you mentioned George Barnett. George Barnett back in the nineties, I looked this up the other day, back in the nineties, made the comment if the church did all this research and he says if the church does not change how it engages the communities that surround it, they will cease to become an influence, the major influence on those communities. And he doesn't pretend to be a prophet. He's a researcher. Right. And you heard me say it over the last several decades. You've heard me quote that over and over and over, and the church refuses to change because we treat tradition equal to, you know, scriptural doctrine, which is different than manmade doctrine that's based in a scripture. That's a whole nother podcast we treat all this or all of these beliefs the same. And so we're not willing to change. We're not willing to be wrong. We're not willing to make adjustments. And when we do, it's for the wrong reasons. So you asked you said something earlier, you think the church has learned. Tell me more about what? Let me interview you. Tell me more about what you meant by that. Before I respond to that comment. 

Rick Yuhas 30:11
When I take something. 

Dr. Johnny Walker 30:12
I mean, it triggered something with me. 

Rick Yuhas 30:14
I thought the church has learned. I think the church has taken cues and realized that they have to be they have to have an online presence. But what I think that they've forgotten or they may never knew is that whether someone is looking online for a church or looking in person for a church, those people are not looking for tradition and fluff. They're looking and I think I wrote it down as they're not looking for Christians, they're looking for Christ. Yeah, and if you're not offering Christ, they'll go somewhere else. If you can't snag them with the word of God, they either don't want it or you're doing it wrong. Because 

it's been proven that the stuff that you're talking about, a lot of this megachurch stuff and it's it's gone off into smaller churches that the games, the fun, the special weekends of this is Star Wars in the Bible. It's all fun. But really, how effective is that kind of stuff? You know, it's really that's really designed for the people that are already going. That's designed to keep the people that are tithing and paying the light bill happy. But it's not really doing a whole lot for the lost. 

Dr. Johnny Walker 31:44
Well, not now. We're in another topic, which is what is the church for, Right? Is the church. I mean, because when I pastored, I'll never forget a deacon coming to me saying, you know, you're doing all this teaching and disciples ship on Sunday morning. Is that that's for the gospel presentation. Sunday nights and Wednesday nights is for this other stuff. And I said, well, when when you pastor a church, you can do it. The Holy Spirit tells you, you know, and I wasn't there very long, you know, that whole story. But my point is, you know, I just wouldn't play that game. I don't personally believe that the church being the building, the meeting on Sunday mornings is is for the lost people. I believe it's for the equipping of the Saints to go out and be the church during the week and on Sundays as well. But all throughout the week that now the world experiences the church and and and that's what I think is missing. We're not we're not discipling in maturing Christians. I mean, Paul had this same problem. You know, he talked about getting out the milk and you need to get to the meat. But the bottom line is, is that we're teaching the same old thing sitting in the same old songs. And, you know, even if there are new songs, I mean, it's a lot of repetitiveness. And even in the hymns we sing, just as I am 52 times at the end until someone walked down the aisle. I mean, there's nothing new with all this, but what was it that made Rome want the government of Rome to want to connect with the church, the Christian church, and form the Roman Catholic Church. 

Rick Yuhas 33:25
It was the new big thing and there was a lot of people involved in it. 

Dr. Johnny Walker 33:28
Christianity. Christianity was 

taking over the world. I mean, this message, this, this, this way of life, this I mean, it was people's lives were changed and people were doing things differently and not for any certain outcome other than because God loved them enough to send Jesus Christ his only begotten son as a sacrifice, that they loved God back and wanted to share that love with others. And and that the Christian principles didn't necessarily give you a nicer home, but it gave you more peace amidst the storms. It gave you contentment when when you you know, it gave you your needs, not all your desires. And we've we've just feel like we just left all that in. And we haven't been there in a long, long time. And those that teach that get run out of churches because it's not popular. 

Rick Yuhas 34:30
It's not popular. And that's the problem with the church, is that it's not a popularity contest. And it made me wonder why people are even going to church, who is actually showing up. And I came up with two answers. It's going to be one of these two reasons if you're a regular churchgoer and we're going to get rid of its tradition, that's what we've always done. You tell me what you think about these. The first reason that people go to church is because they are the church. They're going there to serve others. They're going there to contribute rather than consume. And I believe you cannot do that alone. Sitting at the house on Sunday morning in your pajama bottoms watching a live stream. The second reason is you go for the sake of those that are not attending church, you're there to invite somebody. You're there to bring somebody. You're there to make sure that if someone does show up, that they're welcomed, they're made to feel like a family. I read something earlier and it said the person that said it said that he was an alcoholic and he had gone to AA meetings. And the difference between church and an AA meeting was that if he was late to church and walked in, people would give him the side eye and make him feel like there was something wrong with him, that he wasn't as good as they were because he couldn't even get there on time. But if he was late to an AA meeting, they stopped the meeting. People jumped up, came over. Game hugs Say we're so glad you're here. Do you need some coffee? They really made him feel welcome. And that's what the church should be doing. We have such an and such a sense of entitlement in the church. Like we are superior, like we're the God's chosen people and we're part of the family. I wish you could see my fingers. We're part of the family. And we are, you know, we're allowing you to come in, but you need to do it our way. And I don't think people want any part of that. 

Dr. Johnny Walker 36:54
So so I would agree with with what you said and I would I would have some additions to that. But I do think that there is a balance here of churches being to speaker friendly, where they're welcoming and adapting or adopting the world standards of morality instead of God's standard. So when we talk about and it's interesting you said our way, I would agree that there shouldn't be an R way, Right? 

Rick Yuhas 37:24
Right. But I also didn't mean that, you know, we should welcome them in and sit them down in the pew next to us and light up a blunt and pop open a miller light. 

Dr. Johnny Walker 37:34
But the early church called the other day they were followers of the way Jesus is, the way the truth in their life. And no one comes to the father. But through him. The whole point is to come to the father. 

Rick Yuhas 37:46
That's just like Mandalorians the truth. 

Dr. Johnny Walker 37:50
It's the way. 

But you know, it's interesting how culture steals so much of the great things of scripture and tries to make it their own, because that is the quote that everyone does from Mandalorian. And we we joke about it in church as well. You know, in the college career group, you know, we started with like six kids and sometimes we still have six kids. Other times we have 15. In other times, you know, they're transient. They're never all there at the same time. And that's fine. We have a different group on Sunday nights. Maybe three of the people in Sunday mornings make it to the Sunday night Bible study and we'll have a different 12 to 15, you know, or ten or whatever, whoever comes. But they're always welcome. We feed them. Sometimes it's the best meal they get all week on Sundays. I teach on Sunday nights they teach. So and they started that Bible study that was already going. And I just supported it. And we, you know, help them to grow it. The bottom line is we have to be welcoming of people, not necessarily welcoming of their sin, but how do we do that? You know, the old adage, you know, love the sinner, but hate this. Yeah. You know, I'm not sure I like that because the word hate in there is I mean, yes, because it's hard to hate someone sin, and they're very attached to it. So how do we do that? But I think it goes back to discipleship. Everything goes back to discipleship. Jesus commanded us to go and make disciples, not converts, period. Yeah. We've got to stop trying to get someone to walk a mile, because obviously that doesn't work because most of them are missing in action today. They're not coming back. They're not here. And many of them are following other ways. Emotionalism is the religion of America. And we tried to intermix emotionalism with Christianity. That's nowhere in Scripture. I mean, there's nowhere in Scripture. 

Rick Yuhas 39:45
It won't work. 

Dr. Johnny Walker 39:46
Yeah, it doesn't. And we've proven that emotions are, you know, wishy washy at best. You know what you feel terrible, terrible about today. You may not feel terrible about tomorrow or you have rationalized a way, but discipleship life on life. People don't know how to disciple. People have not been disciple. To me, the most beautiful stories that I hear during the week are when a young person will come up to me and talk about something they shared with someone in the conversation they had. My son Mitch, this morning, he was getting ready to go to lunch and my wife asked, Who are you going to lunch with? He's 22, he's in college. And he says, Well, there was someone that was in my class last semester and, you know, we got to know each other. So he said, he called me the other day and he had been on my mind a couple of days previously, you know, two or three days passed through my mind. And when he called me, I thought maybe that was the Holy Spirit putting him on my heart. And so during the conversation, I said, Hey, let's go do lunch sometime. And they said it for this week. And within a week or two, you know, they were going to lunch. That's that's discipleship. I don't know. I haven't had the follow up conversation with Mitch, but that's discipleship. It's meeting someone where they are and finding out what they need, meeting those needs, physical needs, emotional needs and spiritual needs. But you've got to to meet these physical and emotional and sometimes intellectual needs. Yes. Before we've earned the right to share the gospel. And when they're ready, we share the gospel. 

Rick Yuhas 41:33
And now, Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey from Rick Yuhas. 

When I found the skull in the woods, the first thing I did was call the police. But then I got curious about it. I picked it up and I started wondering who this person was and why he had deer horns. 

Well, that's all for this part of the interview. I think we've said all we could. For part one will conclude the interview next week and give Dr. Johnny Walker a proper goodbye. But I do want to thank him for his time. It was great. If you have any comments on this episode or suggestions for how the church today can expand to be more people's needs, drop by our web site at renewed mindsets dot com and leave me a message either written or by voicemail. I just may play it on a future show. And while you're there, you can check out all our episodes, read the blog or shop for the ever popular renewed mindsets, merch, T-shirts, hoodies, hats and drinkware. But don't be fighting over the big water cups. This ain't target. Thank you for listening, and I'll see you later. Until next time I. I'm Rick. 

I love you. 

See ya. The music for the Renewed Mindset show is Are you ready by Floodgate? From the album. Are you ready? Copyright two to Offbeat Ministries, Inc.. Floodgate Music is available on Apple Music and iTunes. Music used with permission.