PodSwap- Christ Alone Podcast: Is Jeffrey Dahmer in Heaven?

Rick Yuhas:
0:04

Hey, welcome to Renewed Mindsets, where we study the basics of the faith through the lens of our middle-aged experiences. I'm Rick. Welcome to the show where I help you, gen Xers and millennials, navigate spiritually through a world that looks nothing like we expected back, when cars were square and bullets were totally awesome. I am so glad you're here.

Stevens :
0:30

Well have.

Rick Yuhas:
0:30

I got a treat for you. I'm taking some much needed time off. I love this show and I love making it for you, but this has been non-stop, week after week, since October 10th last year Almost six months of what is essentially a second full-time job. I'm excited to introduce you today to Christ Alone Podcast. Angie and Stephens are brother and sister podcast hosts. I believe I referred to them as husband and wife a few months back, just when I think you couldn't possibly be any dumber you go and do something like this. I didn't know and totally redeem yourself, and that's after I sold my dead bird to a blind kid. Anyway, let me get back to it. This episode is about Jeffrey Dahmer and is very interesting. I believe you'll like it. I'll be back next week for the 25th episode. That just so happens to fall on the week of Resurrection Sunday. I appreciate and I love you See ya.

Stevens :
1:45

Thank you for listening to Christ Alone Podcast, where we believe that Jesus lived, died and resurrected according to the Scriptures.

Angie:
1:53

Our hope is that God can bless you through this week's episode.

Stevens :
2:11

All right, welcome back.

Angie:
2:15

You're listening to Angie and Stephens podcast Christ Alone, christ Alone.

Stevens :
2:20

Podcast. All right, welcome back. God bless you all. Happy New Year. Oh, that was my plan. Yeah, so yeah, let's, let's kick this year off. I mean we? I mentioned last episode that we're going to continue with 1st Peter, but of course, God has other plans.

Angie:
2:40

So earlier this week my brother messaged me about a book he was reading and I was very intrigued. He said it was written by the pastor who baptized Jeffrey Dahmer. So I'm like I want to read that and so I got the book and it's a short book so I finished it within a couple of days, does he? I'm sure you finished it in like two seconds and it was just so great. We just want to talk about it because I think it's a, it's a great topic to discuss. So it's called the dark journey deep grace, by Roy Ratcliffe with Lindy Adams.

Stevens :
3:13

Yeah, and it's basically Jeffrey's Dahmer, jeffrey Dahmer's story of faith. You know I did if you guys have been listening a while back, maybe a year ago or more, I did a short rail video on the alphabet apologetics page on Instagram and it was addressing this particular topic. There was a there was a lot of commotion going on about the Jeffrey Dahmer Netflix series that came out and so it was just on everyone's radar. Everyone was talking about it and the question kept coming up. You know is Jeffrey Dahmer, because the last interview that he did in 1994, he admits, you know. So that popped up on my feet and I was interested us.

Stevens :
4:01

So I watched it and it's and I heard him very clearly say that he had accepted Jesus as the one and only God. And and it shocked me because I had never heard that I was about 12 years old when, when Jeffrey Dahmer was in prison and and was, you know, then later killed. But I knew about his crimes also because I studied criminal justice, so we went through all of that, but I never knew that he had openly confessed that Christ was his Lord and savior, like in those very words. So as a as a Christian now, as a real Christian I. I was shocked to hear that for the first time no-transcript. I made a video and in the video I didn't have enough information. But you know because.

Rick Yuhas:
4:57

I didn't know Jeffrey Dahmer.

Stevens :
4:58

I just we all know what he did right. But when I heard that I thought and because there were so many people having a problem with it, this one thing that kept coming up that even the Book mentions was like hey, if Jeffrey Dahmer's in heaven, then I don't want to be there. And the worst part, crazy the worst part is that this was coming from professing Christians.

Angie:
5:22

That's interesting. So first I think we should start off with talking about maybe what Jeffrey Dahmer is known for, because honestly, I didn't see the Netflix series. I only I knew that he was a serial killer, but I didn't realize what he did until I actually read this book. Man, I'm glad the book goes over this. So he, basically, he was with his parents parents divorced at some point.

Angie:
5:45

There is some Christian faith throughout his life, but I think at a young age His dad is going to church and he just stops going. And the book goes into how, basically, the mom was feel was made to feel guilty For her not going to church and so the dad decided to not go to church anymore and so he he ends up just, I guess, doing church on his own at home. I mean, so, jeffrey Dahmer, he Doesn't go to church anymore. Later on in his life he ends up living with his grandmother and During that time, after shortly after his parents divorce, that's when he starts his serial killing. So he starts killing young men, late teens, early 20s and he does Almost everything to them.

Angie:
6:33

So he medialized them, he kills them, he right, I think he rapes them and he unconscious and dead and and he also eats some of them and he does different things to his organs and he does that to a number of a number of 17.

Angie:
6:50

Yeah, that, that's right. 17 different young men until one day One guy is running down the street. He finds two cops of you know he was just with Jeffrey and and he tells him what's happened, that he has handcuffs on him and the cops go to Jeffrey's house and they find him and they find body parts of you know Good amount of people that he had just left around his house in different places because he also, like, tested on his organs and different things and he went to jail and Surely after. Well, we'll get to that, but that's basically his story. Now, reading, reading that story, that's that's I mean. I mean I know the book goes into whether or not he was sane and From what the book describes he was like he knew what he was doing.

Angie:
7:39

Right someone who is sane is someone who knows what they're doing and knows the consequences of what they're doing Right. And from what he's expressed in doc, what he expressed in documentaries and what he said at the court case, he knew exactly what he was doing. And, you know, I think one of the things that he told the the judge and the jury is like you know, I deserve, like I don't deserve to, basically I deserve whatever punishment.

Stevens :
8:02

Yeah is yeah he didn't plead for like a lighter sentence. He's nothing. He fully took on the responsibility of that, and in his last interview he also admitted that. You know, the reason that he did these things is because he believed in evolution. He believed that we were just slimed that just kind of just developed into what we are, and so he didn't feel a Conviction to submit himself to any laws.

Angie:
8:32

Yeah, so if there was nobody that he needed to answer to, then it really didn't matter what yeah did or didn't do exactly.

Stevens :
8:40

If he Was his ultimate authority, then yeah, it didn't matter. And so he didn't. He didn't find a reason why he should be, you know, subject himself to these rules and regulations or laws. That's why I did these things.

Stevens :
8:52

Now, the other thing too is that the book does not mention is that, you know, at a very young age there were signs, but I think his parents were just too distracted With, you know, the conflicts of, you know, marital relationship that they were having, that that they neglected to see the potential issue.

Stevens :
9:13

You know he started picking up animals off the road and just, you know, cutting them open. And you know he was curious and you know, I admit, when I was a little kid I was curious about maybe even some things like that, like I, you know what, like, what are the, you know what does the. When you start being exposed to some of these things You're like, you know what is the inside of a body look like, or what does this look like, or. And you know he was just in a time and a place where he had the means and he had the, you know the, the watchful eyes that were not watching, and so he was able to kind of just doing his own thing. So on some level he he understood that he could do those things and he was allowed to do those things and he could hide those things and he admits to that. You know, as he grew older he knew that those things were wrong, but it's just, he had, and I guess, an impulse to To do those things.

Angie:
10:11

So right and so the book goes over, is basically the story like, like we mentioned earlier, of the pastor who is at some point contacted. So he because he received, he is notified that Jeffrey that someone it wants to get baptized in jail and then, once he does some digging, he finds out that it's actually Jeffrey Dahmer and obviously his name was he was famous during that time and so the pastor Agrees to first meet with Jeffrey. So you know, the book goes into how he goes and talks to Jeffrey, obviously to find out if his faith is genuine, and after seemingly short conversation he's like all right, I'm gonna baptize you. He sees that you know, his Love for Jesus is genuine, that his desire to be baptized is genuine, and so he sets it all up and he gets baptized, and then they start. And the awesome thing about that is the pastor didn't just Just baptize him, as after that he's like no, I want to keep meeting you on a weekly basis because I want you, I want to make sure that you're developing your faith, which was awesome and Something that the pastor didn't realize.

Angie:
11:19

I guess the one of the climax of the book is that right after he baptizes Baptizes Dahmer he tells one person from church who works for the media and he doesn't think it's a big deal and Right immediately after that's, you know, posted or sent out. He gets all these calls and there's I guess there's that question, you know, can he really be baptized, did he really have a genuine faith? And a bunch of people were angry, like you mentioned earlier. A lot of questions, a lot of people said you know, if Jeffrey Dahmer is in heaven, then I don't want to be there. Yeah, so I guess that's. I think that's the main point, the main topic of the book and something that we want to discuss today.

Stevens :
12:00

Yeah, yeah, I'm like I was saying, you know those questions were coming up. You know, when I when I decided to make that, that video on alphabet, apologetics, and and I made the video because of that, because I I realized that when Christians speak and they're not being biblical, there's one of three things going on either they don't understand Christianity, they don't understand the subject matter that they are speaking about, or both. They don't understand both, because I understand, you know, as a baby Christian, you know you, you have to be disciple. Then you know there are things that that you are led to believe because you hear it from people that you trust that may not be biblical, that just sound good, right, and I'm guilty of that. I've.

Stevens :
12:48

There's things that I've had to go back and delete on social media that I've posted that I thought were correct, and Once I found out that that was not biblical, I went back and I deleted it because I don't want people to Misunderstand scripture or God or anything like that, which is part of the reason why we have this podcast. So I made the video because I think this speaks to the grace of God. We've talked about on the podcast before how people have this idea, where they take the standard of God, they cut it up into pieces, they separate the pieces that convict them and then they adopt the pieces that convict everyone else around them. Right, and we as humans, we have a tendency to do that and it's our sinful nature that that leads us to that. And when we do that, then we start saying, okay, well, I'm not as bad as Hitler or I'm not as bad as Jeffrey Dahmer, but I'm maybe. I'm not as good as mother Teresa or Billy Graham.

Stevens :
13:49

Yeah, like no, billy Graham, mother Teresa and the like were not Better than Hitler or Jeffrey Dahmer. I mean, from an earthly perspective, we can say, yeah, they were more lawful. Maybe they did more to help the community than to hurt the community. But you know, I think for a long time, going back to Jeffrey Dahmer, I think what Jeffrey Dahmer's crimes did was hurt the community more than help the community. However, after reading this book, after understanding his story a little bit more, I believe that Jeffrey Dahmer the when Jeffrey Dahmer ended up, I think is doing now the Opposite of that, the inverse of that, because I think with this, if people understand God's grace, they can look at Jeffrey Dahmer's story and say you know what, if Jeffrey Dahmer can reach out to God and God won't turn him away, then he can definitely not turn me away right.

Rick Yuhas:
14:56

We will return after these messages. Welcome to wisdom for the day, the podcast where we unpack the timeless wisdom of the book of Proverbs, one bite-sized nugget at a time. Join us daily as we journey through this ancient treasure trove of insight, offering practical wisdom for modern living. Get ready to start your day with clarity, purpose and a deeper understanding of life's greatest lessons. This is wisdom for the day, your daily dose of Proverbs wisdom. Find us at wisdom for the dayorg.

Stevens :
15:33

And I think, if we are gonna use comparison it, it's gonna be helpful to do healthy comparisons Like that, because then that's gonna lead us to so God is gonna bring us to Christ.

Angie:
15:45

Yeah, I think it's. It's easy, though, because I think one of the comments I got from Someone you know when I told them I was reading this book is and they're not a believer, they're like well is. I don't think I don't remember the exact words, but basically the idea was I, it's not fair because I how can you compare me, who has lied to my parents, and Jeffrey Dahmer, who was murder, and Hitler actually?

Rick Yuhas:
16:11

came up.

Angie:
16:12

Hitler, who has killed so many people, and we, you know we can get the same type of Treatment.

Stevens :
16:19

Yeah, side note. Side note there's a. There's a thing called I think it's called Godwin's law.

Angie:
16:25

What is it?

Stevens :
16:25

called Godwin's law. Okay, man, I think if if this is the correct one, look it up, verify us. But it's called Godwin's law and it basically says that in in a dispute, in an argument, that if you argue long enough, eventually Someone brings up Hitler. It is interesting it's super interesting. Anyways, side note yeah and I guess.

Angie:
16:51

But I think it's interesting because I think it talks to that person, you know, because I think we've all maybe at some point thought something like this. It talks to our understanding of how, how good we think that we actually are.

Stevens :
17:07

Yeah.

Angie:
17:08

And what we actually deserve. Because if I understand that I, like we said earlier and I think that this is the biggest, the biggest, I mean this is the gospel right that my sin is so, so big, because when I, standing next to God, who is perfect and eternal, my, if it eat, I mean we're exaggerating here. Even if I were to lie one time, that lies humongous.

Stevens :
17:32

That one lie makes you a liar.

Angie:
17:33

Yeah, and it deserves death, you know, and so there's even talking. I might be just skipping ahead, but you know there's one of the things that Jeffrey struggled with at some point is, you know, in the Bible said he mentioned to the pastor. He's like I think I deserve to die because of what I did, and the pastor reason. He answers he's like, yeah, you do. But something to realize, though, is that you know Jesus took that. He took that punishment, like he took that death punishment for us so that we wouldn't have to. Now Romans talks about how obviously God gives us God gives us state governing power. So there are states that are gonna have the death penalty. There are states that won't have the death penalty. It's up to that state basically to decide, but ultimately, god did take that punishment for us and we are forgiven if we believe that he did.

Stevens :
18:29

Amen, amen. So you know living waters. We've mentioned living waters ministry here before. Ray Comfort does a really good job of sharing the gospel and you know, one of the things that's common that I've learned from watching his videos is that when he asks this is one of the questions that he asked to engage with people is do you think you're a good person? And I wanna say, 99% of the time everyone says yes, I think I'm a good person. So when I talk about this in terms like with coworkers and other people, I say yes. From an earthly perspective, yeah, we are good people because we abide by the law and all of that, but not by God's standard, if we want. Sometimes we hear people say well, why doesn't God come and punish the wicked? Well, I don't think people understand the implications of that statement, because if you're saying God, I want you to come and punish the wicked, what is to stop God from starting with the person asking the question?

Angie:
19:33

Right. What is it? What is the difference? There is no difference.

Stevens :
19:38

And I think that speaks to that point. It's like no, you could look at it like why would Jeffrey Dahmer be allowed to be saved? Yeah, you know, by earthly standards he was in prison, justly so, and he deserved to be there. He deserved to be there for the rest of his life. If there was a death penalty and he would have gotten sentenced to the death penalty, he would have deserved that. That would have been deserving of his crimes. But we're talking about his crimes.

Angie:
20:08

We're not like Talk about how he sinned against God. His crimes against the society.

Rick Yuhas:
20:14

Society, not crimes against law.

Angie:
20:17

And that's one of the big pushbacks that the pastor got after baptizing him, because I guess the misunderstanding was people were thinking oh so then do you, because you baptized him, do you think that he should be freed? Absolutely not. You know, like you said, it's the fact that he broke the law against God, and so forgiveness of sins, I'm sorry, accepting him, forgives him of that before God, but he still was bound to be in jail and, like you said, took any penalty that the state would have given him.

Stevens :
20:46

Amen, yeah, so, yeah, so, yeah, him being sorry and all of that, that doesn't change the crimes that he did. He still. There's a consequence for that. But the same way that he submitted his life to Christ, there's also a consequence for that, and that's eternal life. And that's eternal life in the presence of God.

Stevens :
21:08

Now I think we can't know exactly for sure how genuine Jeffrey Dahmer was in his confession. Right, that's between him and God. And you know, roy Ratcliffe, who wrote the book and who baptized him and and discipled him, has probably a more solid understanding of Jeffrey Dahmer being saved or not. But after reading this book, after you know understanding Jeffrey Dahmer's story and some of what he said, as long as all that is true, I'm confident that he is saved. Now I won't. We won't know for sure until we're in heaven and we see him. But I always think about when I think about Jeffrey Dahmer being in heaven. I also think about when Paul went to heaven. Right, paul persecuted Christians, tortured them. He did all these horrible things. Paul even admits Like listen, you want to talk about the bad guys? I'm the worst of the worst.

Angie:
22:06

That's the you know, that's the thing that people I guess, I guess when you. That's why we're surprised when people say, hey, if Jeffrey Dahmer's in heaven, I don't want to be there, it's like. But have you read the Bible? Because the scriptures are clear and they're full of people who fall so short, like the king that I was talking about the other day, that he sacrificed his kids, like he burned them alive, to a God that was to God, that wasn't God.

Stevens :
22:36

People who have cheated who have killed, who have done yeah, I mean, we could go on down the list but it speaks to God's grace and, honestly, it's a beautiful thing to see that Paul went to heaven. And here's the shocker for a lot of Christians out there that I would say and challenge to go back to the scripture and see what it says. But those, all those people, all those Christians that Paul persecuted, tortured and treated horribly, beginning with Stephen the martyr, right, they, I promise you, they all received Paul with open arms in heaven. I promise you. Because why? Because that's what the grace of God teaches us, that's what scripture teaches us, that's what Jesus taught us. So so, yeah, I mean to me, I love talking about this because it again it honors and glorifies God and puts a focus on his grace, because I think that grace is humbling when you think about it, it is.

Stevens :
23:45

Like I think about it as like man, really like Jeffrey Dahmer, he could be saved. Why can't I Like, yeah, like to me, that's beautiful. And then it's like there's no depth that you can find yourself in, that God can't reach you, that God cannot save you from. There's something that someone mentioned too recently, and they're talking about selling your soul to the devil, and it's like I don't think there is such a thing. I mean, you can submit to the devil and the devil will give you the, you know all the things that you want, maybe, but that doesn't mean you can't be saved. You're still alive. As long as you're still alive and breathing, god can still save you, as long as you repent and you believe that Christ is your Lord and Savior.

Angie:
24:43

And I think that's why I mean, when you look at someone who is genuinely Christian, you can see that you can hopefully see that fruit of the spirit, which one of them is joy. And it's like why can you be joyous, no matter your circumstances, like because I've been greatly forgiven, like you don't like my. I was hopeless and God gave me hope. I had no purpose and God gave me purpose. I was doomed to get an internal punishment, and he's gonna. He's given me salvation for eternity and that's just a beautiful thing no matter what my situation is, no matter what my circumstances, because nothing in this world and in this life is, I guess, consistent except for God. He is always there.

Stevens :
25:28

Amen, yeah, and I think Jeffrey Dahmer's story is just. It's one that everyone knows, I think, I think it's one that most people know. But there are many stories like this, there are many redemptive stories, not just in scripture, not just in real life, but there's plenty of stories like it. And, again, I think it's the epitome of what Paul talks about in Romans 5.20, where he says now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin is increased, grace abounds all the more. It means the more sin that is in your life when you turn your life to Christ, the more grace there is, because it's required.

Stevens :
26:16

And you know, I find that the people who have, like, the most hardcore testimonies also turn out to be like, really, I don't know, I don't know how to say it, but they, like there's a somewhere in the Gospels where it talks about like, if your debt is forgiven, like I think it's Jesus that asked like who's debt? Who's more grateful for their debt being forgiven, the one who's forgiven less or the one who's forgiven the most? And it's like no, the one who was forgiven the most is more grateful because, you know, if you owe a million dollars and I owe five dollars and somebody pays my debt and it's like all right, thanks, that's nice. But if someone pays your debt, it's like what?

Rick Yuhas:
27:04

Yeah.

Stevens :
27:04

You know, it's like that's crazy, you know, and it's like how much more appreciative, how much more are you going to be than me?

Angie:
27:14

Especially if it's something that I don't deserve. It's like it just. It just comes out like why I'd be, like, why, like, how can I, what can I do to pay you back.

Stevens :
27:22

Exactly, there's nothing. There's nothing we can do. So, again, this speaks to the grace of God, and you know that there there isn't anyone who's breathing today that might be listening to this message. That is too far gone for you know. Repentance and submission to Christ.

Angie:
27:43

Amen, I mean, I think, to. To finish, I think the big question to ask ourselves is not whether or not Jeffrey Dahmer is saved. Is he in heaven or not it's. Are we saved? Amen.

Angie:
27:56

The listener, whoever you are, do you believe that you are saved? Okay, and if you don't, we, we pray, we encourage you to come to Jesus. I'm telling you, he is like. He is the father with open arms near the prodigal son or daughter who has returned. Or maybe you've never known God in your life and you want to come to him. He is your father also and he loves you and he's been waiting for you to come home.

Angie:
28:23

We ask that you repent of your sins and turn to him and if you are, if you're not sure, if you're saved, if you are a Christian you're like I honestly am not sure we encourage you to press into God, press into your time with him, press into your word, find a community and in doing so, he will give you that assurance that you need, because the Bible says that there is no, there is no fear of love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. Those who, those who fear, have not been perfected in love, and so he wants us to not be afraid, he wants us to be sure, he wants us to look to the future, to eternal life, after we've died, with hope, knowing that we will be with him.

Stevens :
29:07

Amen, and and and there is a way to know I. There was a question asked in one some group that I'm a part of, I don't remember which one, but they asked is there, is there a way to know for sure that I am saved? And that speaks to the to what you mentioned, and one of the verses that came to mind was 2nd Corinthians, chapter one, verses 21 and 22, where it says and it is God who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us, and who has also put his seal on us and given us his spirit in our hearts as a guarantee. That guarantee means security. It means that that's it. You know when something breaks and there's a lifetime guarantee on it you're not worried because you're not worried Exactly Cause you can go and get it replaced and fixed.

Stevens :
30:01

And that's what that is Salvation is guaranteed, all right. So if you don't know, if you're not sure, then you know, pray about it, give us a call. You can call us at. Text us at 407-796-2881 with your suggestions, questions or prayer requests, or you can find us at Christ alone podcastcom.

Angie:
30:24

All of our handles are Christ alone podcasts podcast, except for Twitter or X, which is Christ alone pod.

Stevens :
30:32

Amen.

Angie:
30:32

We thank you guys for joining us. We love you and if we don't see you next week, we'll see in the clouds. God bless.

Rick Yuhas:
30:43

The intro and outro music for the renewed mindsets podcast is Are you Ready? By Floodgate from the album Are you ready? Copyright 2002 Offbeat Ministries Incorporated. Floodgate can be found on Apple Music and iTunes Music used with permission.